Discussion:
Preposition with and
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The Natural Philosopher
2023-07-08 13:13:16 UTC
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Consider the phrase

X and Y on T.

Is that to be interpreted as:

(X and Y ) on T or
X and (Y on T)?

Personally i wouldn't use it without a comma to clarify, but a friend
says a comma is incorrect?
--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.
Mark Carroll
2023-07-08 15:38:00 UTC
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Post by The Natural Philosopher
Consider the phrase
X and Y on T.
(X and Y ) on T or
X and (Y on T)?
Personally i wouldn't use it without a comma to clarify, but a friend
says a comma is incorrect?
I like your comma. If it's incorrect then the language is broken and we
should fix it by using commas rather than switching to Lojban or
whatever.

My go-to has typically been the second edition of Fowler's but others
would disagree.

-- Mark
Tim Ward
2023-07-08 15:51:33 UTC
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Post by Mark Carroll
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Consider the phrase
X and Y on T.
(X and Y ) on T or
X and (Y on T)?
Personally i wouldn't use it without a comma to clarify, but a friend
says a comma is incorrect?
I like your comma. If it's incorrect then the language is broken and we
should fix it by using commas rather than switching to Lojban or
whatever.
Unless it's a legal text, in which case commas aren't allowed so if you
want to know what it really means you have to pay a lawyer.
--
Tim Ward - 07801 703 600
www.brettward.co.uk
Richard Kettlewell
2023-07-09 09:59:09 UTC
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Post by The Natural Philosopher
Consider the phrase
X and Y on T.
(X and Y ) on T or
X and (Y on T)?
It’s contextual.

Gin and tonic on ice -> (gin and tonic) on ice.
Orange juice and beans on toast -> orange juice and (beans on toast).
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Personally i wouldn't use it without a comma to clarify, but a friend
says a comma is incorrect?
If there are truly no contextual clues then a comma seems like a good
option to disambiguate (rephrasing would probably work too). In speech,
you’d use a pause.

Your friend can be confused (or confusing) if they prefer it that way.
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
The Natural Philosopher
2023-07-09 10:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Kettlewell
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Consider the phrase
X and Y on T.
(X and Y ) on T or
X and (Y on T)?
It’s contextual.
Gin and tonic on ice -> (gin and tonic) on ice.
Orange juice and beans on toast -> orange juice and (beans on toast).
And if its completely ambiguous?

"I will give you sixpence and a bottle of wine on Friday"
Post by Richard Kettlewell
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Personally i wouldn't use it without a comma to clarify, but a friend
says a comma is incorrect?
If there are truly no contextual clues then a comma seems like a good
option to disambiguate (rephrasing would probably work too). In speech,
you’d use a pause.
Your friend can be confused (or confusing) if they prefer it that way.
HE was concerned about grammar. Grammatically it's as correct as eats,
shoots and leaves...
--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!
Richard Kettlewell
2023-07-09 11:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Richard Kettlewell
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Consider the phrase
X and Y on T.
(X and Y ) on T or
X and (Y on T)?
It’s contextual.
Gin and tonic on ice -> (gin and tonic) on ice.
Orange juice and beans on toast -> orange juice and (beans on toast).
And if its completely ambiguous?
"I will give you sixpence and a bottle of wine on Friday"
Ask for clarification, or wait and see when they give you the sixpence.
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
Vir Campestris
2023-07-10 20:08:13 UTC
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Post by Richard Kettlewell
Ask for clarification, or wait and see when they give you the sixpence.
Nobody has given me a sixpence in _years_ ...

Best to reword it completely.

"Rugby is a game played by gentlemen with odd shaped balls".

Andy
Tim Ward
2023-07-10 20:34:04 UTC
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Post by Vir Campestris
Post by Richard Kettlewell
Ask for clarification, or wait and see when they give you the
sixpence.
Nobody has given me a sixpence in _years_ ...
Best to reword it completely.
"Rugby is a game played by gentlemen with odd shaped balls".
Andy
Here's one I saw today:

"Dear Tim, As the xxx I would like to thank you for ..."

Who's the xxx? Them or me? You can only tell from the context which it is:


"I, as the xxx, would like to thank you for ..."
"I would like to thank you, as the xxx, for ..."
--
Tim Ward - 07801 703 600
www.brettward.co.uk
Richard Kettlewell
2023-07-11 07:55:43 UTC
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Post by Tim Ward
Post by Vir Campestris
Post by Richard Kettlewell
Ask for clarification, or wait and see when they give you the sixpence.
Nobody has given me a sixpence in _years_ ...
Best to reword it completely.
"Rugby is a game played by gentlemen with odd shaped balls".
Andy
"Dear Tim, As the xxx I would like to thank you for ..."
Presumably you know whether or not you’re an xxx, so you do in fact know
what that part means, on the offchance that it actually makes a
difference to the import of the sentence, i.e. you being thanked for
something.

Very little communication truly happens in a contextual vacuum, and it’s
not only pointless to make each sentence stand in isolation when its
audience can trivially work it out from context, it’d lead to rather
verbose prose if you did.
--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
The Natural Philosopher
2023-07-11 12:50:26 UTC
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Post by Richard Kettlewell
Very little communication truly happens in a contextual vacuum, and it’s
not only pointless to make each sentence stand in isolation when its
audience can trivially work it out from context, it’d lead to rather
verbose prose if you did.
Would you like a second hand Maserati and lunch on Sunday?
--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14
Michael Kilpatrick
2023-07-13 21:29:45 UTC
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Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Richard Kettlewell
Very little communication truly happens in a contextual vacuum, and it’s
not only pointless to make each sentence stand in isolation when its
audience can trivially work it out from context, it’d lead to rather
verbose prose if you did.
Would you like a second hand Maserati and lunch on Sunday?
How do I determine whether there is a missing comma in the above (why
Richard K would want a spare part for a clock along with a car and
lunch, I don't know) or a missing hyphen?

Michael
The Natural Philosopher
2023-07-14 07:31:35 UTC
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Post by Michael Kilpatrick
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Richard Kettlewell
Very little communication truly happens in a contextual vacuum, and it’s
not only pointless to make each sentence stand in isolation when its
audience can trivially work it out from context, it’d lead to rather
verbose prose if you did.
Would you like a second hand Maserati and lunch on Sunday?
How do I determine whether there is a missing comma in the above
Exactly.

(why
Post by Michael Kilpatrick
Richard K would want a spare part for a clock along with a car and
lunch, I don't know) or a missing hyphen?
Michael
--
Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.
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